IIRC, it's an Apple / Atari box.ijor wrote:Well, the software exists. This doesn't proof that the box exists
Aim Software?Magneto. Again please, which company is the publisher?
Rob, did you get the address?
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Atari Frog
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How is the rarity calculated for games?
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Atari Frog
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FastRobPlus
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quote:
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Aim Software?
Rob, did you get the address?
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Yes. Thanks! I'll act upon this in the next week or so. - the next time I do shiping.
I tried to obtain good images of some of my games, but I used a digital camera to take the photos and they turned out warped. I'll need to get better photos before submitting.
That said, here are some low res images of Magneto. Notcie that the edges are ragged - I think this game used to be a box but was cut down to two cards by someone for storage:
http://classicgames.talkspot.com/aspx/t ... gid=218875
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Aim Software?
Rob, did you get the address?
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Yes. Thanks! I'll act upon this in the next week or so. - the next time I do shiping.
I tried to obtain good images of some of my games, but I used a digital camera to take the photos and they turned out warped. I'll need to get better photos before submitting.
That said, here are some low res images of Magneto. Notcie that the edges are ragged - I think this game used to be a box but was cut down to two cards by someone for storage:
http://classicgames.talkspot.com/aspx/t ... gid=218875
So tell everybody who was the bastardosgorth wrote:And yes, it does exist Ijor, I know that to be a fact. But that copy is no more, it's been thrown away... (I know, I want to kill him too)
It is quite strange that a title from such a major publisher is so rare. Any idea or speculation about the possible reason? Frog, Osgorth?
Hehe, I don't know him personally, though I have heard the story second-hand.. It's really sad, but it's unfortunately true.
The Rapidfire label was a huge flop.. SSI decided to expand into action and arcade style games in late 1982, and those were released under the Rapidfire label. None of them sold in big numbers, some in very small numbers indeed (a few hundred at most). As far as I know, the last Rapidfire release was in early 1985, but this is hard to find out for sure, it's only speculation.
Queen of Hearts is about as far from SSI you can come - it's a frigging pinball game for crying out loud!
So it probably sold very few copies..
Another reason could be that SSI sold most of their games direct, and their customer base were mostly into strategy and wargames in the early years, so if they didn't distribute the Rapidfire games well through reseller channels, chances are they barely sold any at all. Word I have got from a retailer who was active back then is that SSI didn't manufacture a pile of games and shipped it out or stored in a warehouse like many others did - you had to order the games from them, and they manufactured as many as they had to, basically. They did not have a large distributor like many other publishers had at the time. This certainly sheds some light into the limited distribution in the beginning. It appears this changed as of the AD&D license, around 1986-87, when sales exploded. Only a few years ago it was rather easy to find new shrinkwrapped games from 1986 and onwards, suggesting that there might have been big numbers produced and stored in warehouses. New in box games from 1985 and prior to that are extremely uncommon, further strengthening that hypothesis.
Overall, a lot of SSI games didn't sell too well, from the info I've been able to gather. They really only took off when they got the AD&D license. The gold box games sold very well, some several hundred thousand copies. The early games (first half of the 80s) perhaps sold anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand at most, so there's a major difference there.
The Rapidfire label was a huge flop.. SSI decided to expand into action and arcade style games in late 1982, and those were released under the Rapidfire label. None of them sold in big numbers, some in very small numbers indeed (a few hundred at most). As far as I know, the last Rapidfire release was in early 1985, but this is hard to find out for sure, it's only speculation.
Queen of Hearts is about as far from SSI you can come - it's a frigging pinball game for crying out loud!
So it probably sold very few copies..Another reason could be that SSI sold most of their games direct, and their customer base were mostly into strategy and wargames in the early years, so if they didn't distribute the Rapidfire games well through reseller channels, chances are they barely sold any at all. Word I have got from a retailer who was active back then is that SSI didn't manufacture a pile of games and shipped it out or stored in a warehouse like many others did - you had to order the games from them, and they manufactured as many as they had to, basically. They did not have a large distributor like many other publishers had at the time. This certainly sheds some light into the limited distribution in the beginning. It appears this changed as of the AD&D license, around 1986-87, when sales exploded. Only a few years ago it was rather easy to find new shrinkwrapped games from 1986 and onwards, suggesting that there might have been big numbers produced and stored in warehouses. New in box games from 1985 and prior to that are extremely uncommon, further strengthening that hypothesis.
Overall, a lot of SSI games didn't sell too well, from the info I've been able to gather. They really only took off when they got the AD&D license. The gold box games sold very well, some several hundred thousand copies. The early games (first half of the 80s) perhaps sold anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand at most, so there's a major difference there.
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Atari Frog
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Thanks Rob, no big hurry 
That's some interesting SSI information you got there! Do you have sources for number of copies sold? I would think a game like Queen of Hearts (with both Apple and Atari versions on the same disk) sold in the low thousands rather than hundreds. Even for games that bombed, I have a hard time believing stuff from big publishers had production runs that low.
The reason I'm bringing this up is that, actually, I asked the founder of a very small publisher (called Basics and Beyond, still active today) if he knew how many copies the company sold for the games in our database. He said "about 400-500 copies each" for the Atari alone. Even though it was mainly for a market probably less prone to piracy, I still think this is amazingly high, given that these games don't even exist in copied form and that I have not found ads for them yet (not in Atari-specialized publications at least).
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Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com
That's some interesting SSI information you got there! Do you have sources for number of copies sold? I would think a game like Queen of Hearts (with both Apple and Atari versions on the same disk) sold in the low thousands rather than hundreds. Even for games that bombed, I have a hard time believing stuff from big publishers had production runs that low.
The reason I'm bringing this up is that, actually, I asked the founder of a very small publisher (called Basics and Beyond, still active today) if he knew how many copies the company sold for the games in our database. He said "about 400-500 copies each" for the Atari alone. Even though it was mainly for a market probably less prone to piracy, I still think this is amazingly high, given that these games don't even exist in copied form and that I have not found ads for them yet (not in Atari-specialized publications at least).
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Atari Frog
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I got a bunch of info from a distributor who was active in the 80s, and also a guy who owned a retail store. I don't have any specifics, though I have been told that the bad sellers were just a couple of hundred, and most games average a few thousand only. This is within the early period, of course.
The thing here is that we think SSI are big when we look back, but they really were a niche player up until the mid 80s. In the first years of the 80s, nobody sold more than a few thousand copies, unless it was a substantial hit (like Ultima, sold 70,000 copies in total - which was massive back then, but is peanuts today). There were plenty of small publishers who only managed to sell a few up to a hundred copies of a particular game, from what I hear from the Apple gang.
My speculation is that SSI didn't really start to grow noticeably until they began releasing role-playing games, such as Questron in 1983-84, followed up by hits like the Phantasie series and so on. That's almost four years after opening up, and a lot happened during those four years. Original releases from those opening years are almost impossible to find today, suggesting that they indeed were sold in very low numbers. What we do find are mostly re-releases and upgraded versions (v1.1, v1.2, Second Editions and so on) from later years. They had a big catalog, and many games were in print for many years. Computer Ambush for example, was in print all the way up to 1988! (it's from 1982 originally). Most of the first editions and v1.0 versions are MIA today, nowhere to be found..
As time went by, designs changed slightly, they went from printing the platform info on the boxes to those round stickers we all know sometime in late 1984 it seems, for example. Probably at the same time as they introduced the smaller boxes. This is where I think numbers started to increase -- they had to lower the cost of the packaging to be able to crank out the larger numbers of games, and to support all platforms with one single box, and so forth. It makes kind of sense when you think about it, and this also suggests that volumes increased as of 1984 and onward.
The thing here is that we think SSI are big when we look back, but they really were a niche player up until the mid 80s. In the first years of the 80s, nobody sold more than a few thousand copies, unless it was a substantial hit (like Ultima, sold 70,000 copies in total - which was massive back then, but is peanuts today). There were plenty of small publishers who only managed to sell a few up to a hundred copies of a particular game, from what I hear from the Apple gang.
My speculation is that SSI didn't really start to grow noticeably until they began releasing role-playing games, such as Questron in 1983-84, followed up by hits like the Phantasie series and so on. That's almost four years after opening up, and a lot happened during those four years. Original releases from those opening years are almost impossible to find today, suggesting that they indeed were sold in very low numbers. What we do find are mostly re-releases and upgraded versions (v1.1, v1.2, Second Editions and so on) from later years. They had a big catalog, and many games were in print for many years. Computer Ambush for example, was in print all the way up to 1988! (it's from 1982 originally). Most of the first editions and v1.0 versions are MIA today, nowhere to be found..
As time went by, designs changed slightly, they went from printing the platform info on the boxes to those round stickers we all know sometime in late 1984 it seems, for example. Probably at the same time as they introduced the smaller boxes. This is where I think numbers started to increase -- they had to lower the cost of the packaging to be able to crank out the larger numbers of games, and to support all platforms with one single box, and so forth. It makes kind of sense when you think about it, and this also suggests that volumes increased as of 1984 and onward.
The truth is that (almost) all publishers were rather small back then. They were insignificantly small if you compare them with today's corporations. Hey, even Microsoft was smallosgorth wrote:The thing here is that we think SSI are big when we look back
But yet, there were major and minor publishers. Even when "major" and "big" are not accurate for today standards, they were appropiate then. SSI was certainly a big player. Perhaps not since day one, and perhaps not as big as others. But it wasn't a minor publisher
I don't have many official numbers. But I agree with Frog. It doesn't sound reasonable that SSI titles were published in the low hundreds. That might be true for some specific cases (may be Queen of Hearts), but only as an exception. If that were the case then they would be all true rarities. And many SSI titles, including earlier ones are not very rare.
On the other hand, Osgorth is right that the number were always small in comparison to later years (late 80's and 90's).
You probably remember MULE's author interview. He was complaining about the mild sucess of MULE selling for "just" 30,000 copies (total for all platforms). So that would suggest that most major titles were published by the thousands.
You usually can tell by the packaging. A proffesionally pre-printed retail box, manual and disk label, can't be published in too low quantities because that wouldn't be economic. Contrast this with some titles with a simple generic (non-title specific) packaging; such as the earliest Artwork releases.There were plenty of small publishers who only managed to sell a few up to a hundred copies of a particular game, from what I hear from the Apple gang.
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Atari Frog
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Seems pretty obvious numerous programs sold something like twenty units or even less. Just check the classifieds in old mags and you'll see lots of people offering software. That's still commercial to me.
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Atari Frog
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That's very interesting. Do you have a list of which earlier versions that are missing? Does Computer Ambush have multiple versions? I don't see any (obvious) version indication.osgorth wrote:What we do find are mostly re-releases and upgraded versions (v1.1, v1.2, Second Editions and so on) from later years. They had a big catalog, and many games were in print for many years. Computer Ambush for example, was in print all the way up to 1988! (it's from 1982 originally). Most of the first editions and v1.0 versions are MIA today, nowhere to be found..
Ijor, I haven't checked your database to see which versions are in there.. But:
Basically, all Computer X games came in versions 1.0 and 1.1 at least. That is, Computer Bismarck, Ambush and so on.
Computer Ambush and Computer Quarterback are available in Second Editions, and those are the versions everybody has. I have never seen the original versions, for any platforms. I'm guessing that the original first edition was available for the Apple II only, although I have no proof of that (it makes sense, time-wise though). Same goes for most other version upgrades, they would be Apple versions.
As far as I know, the first Atari game was either Tigers in the Snow or Shattered Alliance, and neither of those had upgrades. That would suggest that they didn't release for the Atari until mid or late 1982, and that's also when most upgrades had been done already (not all though!) - hence I think the Atari versions are more or less done. This is speculation though, but I think I'm pretty close.
And well, yeah, SSI was a big player.. After 1983-84. Not before that. There were plenty of games released in 1980-82, and all of those are very, very rare. If you find any of them today, you will most likely find a later release from the mid 80s. Try finding the original Computer Bismarck from 1980.. Or Computer Napoleonics.. 3 copies known of Bismarck, 3 or 4 of Napoleonics - as far as I know. Computer Air Combat is also very rare, less than 10 copies known. For Rapidfire, try Galactic Gladiators.. 3 copies known. The Warp Factor, 1 copy known. S.E.U.I.S., I've seen 3 or 4 copies in total. Combat Leader on tape - MIA. Cytron Masters on tape - 2 copies known. On disk, less tha 10 copies known. I could go on, there are many releases that deserve a rating 9 or 10.
Note, when I say "known", I mean known by me. Obviously there could be some copies lurking in closets somewhere, or in a private collection that I don't know about.. After all this time, however, I doubt it.
Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong, however.
Basically, all Computer X games came in versions 1.0 and 1.1 at least. That is, Computer Bismarck, Ambush and so on.
Computer Ambush and Computer Quarterback are available in Second Editions, and those are the versions everybody has. I have never seen the original versions, for any platforms. I'm guessing that the original first edition was available for the Apple II only, although I have no proof of that (it makes sense, time-wise though). Same goes for most other version upgrades, they would be Apple versions.
As far as I know, the first Atari game was either Tigers in the Snow or Shattered Alliance, and neither of those had upgrades. That would suggest that they didn't release for the Atari until mid or late 1982, and that's also when most upgrades had been done already (not all though!) - hence I think the Atari versions are more or less done.
This is speculation though, but I think I'm pretty close.And well, yeah, SSI was a big player.. After 1983-84. Not before that. There were plenty of games released in 1980-82, and all of those are very, very rare. If you find any of them today, you will most likely find a later release from the mid 80s. Try finding the original Computer Bismarck from 1980.. Or Computer Napoleonics.. 3 copies known of Bismarck, 3 or 4 of Napoleonics - as far as I know. Computer Air Combat is also very rare, less than 10 copies known. For Rapidfire, try Galactic Gladiators.. 3 copies known. The Warp Factor, 1 copy known. S.E.U.I.S., I've seen 3 or 4 copies in total. Combat Leader on tape - MIA. Cytron Masters on tape - 2 copies known. On disk, less tha 10 copies known. I could go on, there are many releases that deserve a rating 9 or 10.
Note, when I say "known", I mean known by me. Obviously there could be some copies lurking in closets somewhere, or in a private collection that I don't know about.. After all this time, however, I doubt it.
Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong, however. Oh, I see you are talking about SSI in the general sense. Not Atari specific. Sorry, misunderstood your point.osgorth wrote:That would suggest that they didn't release for the Atari until mid or late 1982, and that's also when most upgrades had been done already (not all though!) - hence I think the Atari versions are more or less done.
Try finding the original Computer Bismarck from 1980..
Btw, and just out of curiosity. Those early Apple MIA versions, are *completely* MIA? Or are there unboxed copies? Are there non-original copies at all?
Yep, that I did. Sorry, I sometimes forget that not all people are as in to this as I am, obviously most people here are Atari freaks.
As for missing Apple versions.. I don't know if there are any loose disks or unboxed copies, I'm afraid. A friend has a copy of Computer Air Combat v1.0 and I also have the disk image of it. I think this is the only known copy, but I'm not sure. I own v1.0 of Bismarck for both Apple and TRS-80. There are at least two unboxed copies known of Bismarck for Apple (e.g. 2 Apples in box, 1 TRS in box, 2 unboxed Apples). I should have a v1.0 of Tigers in the Snow, but I have no way to test it right now. It appears to be anyway, just need to verify the disk.
Copied disk images.. I have no idea! This is another area I need to dig in to, there's probably some new material to be found there..
I should make a list of all versions at some point, I have most/all info, it's just not been collected yet.
By the way, another tidbit of speculation that I think is right -- all v1.0 versions are done in BASIC, and I think part of what the v1.1 versions do is replace the code with compiled code. They brag about massive speedups in the early catalogs, so that would make sense.. Computer Ambush second edition is apparently up to 40 times faster, hehe. I haven't investigated it though, but I will at some point just for fun.
Sorry, I sometimes forget that not all people are as in to this as I am, obviously most people here are Atari freaks. As for missing Apple versions.. I don't know if there are any loose disks or unboxed copies, I'm afraid. A friend has a copy of Computer Air Combat v1.0 and I also have the disk image of it. I think this is the only known copy, but I'm not sure. I own v1.0 of Bismarck for both Apple and TRS-80. There are at least two unboxed copies known of Bismarck for Apple (e.g. 2 Apples in box, 1 TRS in box, 2 unboxed Apples). I should have a v1.0 of Tigers in the Snow, but I have no way to test it right now. It appears to be anyway, just need to verify the disk.
Copied disk images.. I have no idea! This is another area I need to dig in to, there's probably some new material to be found there..
I should make a list of all versions at some point, I have most/all info, it's just not been collected yet.
By the way, another tidbit of speculation that I think is right -- all v1.0 versions are done in BASIC, and I think part of what the v1.1 versions do is replace the code with compiled code. They brag about massive speedups in the early catalogs, so that would make sense.. Computer Ambush second edition is apparently up to 40 times faster, hehe. I haven't investigated it though, but I will at some point just for fun.
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deathtrappomegranate
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Atari Frog
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Cracked image of Queen of Hearts uploaded. The game is now a "9" in rarity.
I believe there are several revisions of Kampfgruppe and Colonial Conquest for the Atari. I don't think there are updated versions for the early games as SSI entered the Atari market in late 1981 or 1982.
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Atari Frog
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I believe there are several revisions of Kampfgruppe and Colonial Conquest for the Atari. I don't think there are updated versions for the early games as SSI entered the Atari market in late 1981 or 1982.
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Atari Frog
http://www.atarimania.com